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Talk:Nathaniel Richards (Kid Immortus) (Earth-6311)
Unmerging the merged 1) When you suggest a merger, you have to actually wait and see other people's opinions about the matter, and see if they are in concordance with you; 2) Don't, under any circumstances, edit pages and propose mergers without having actually read the comic book issues used as references in the pages; 3) All the Kangs (Rama-Tut, Scarlet Centurion, Kang the Conqueror, Immortus, etc.) are one and the same, and all are temporal counterparts of each other; 4) How do you know "Iron Lad/Kid Immortus is not forced anymore to travel back to his age to become Rama-Tut, Scarlet Centurion, Kang and Immortus"? Do you have access to the future or something? Because a later writer could totally prove you wrong. --The Many-Angled One (talk) 22:06, January 15, 2017 (UTC) :There are concerning Nathaniel Richards, and I'm not personally familiar enough with the vast history of the character to know how much of it is correct, but the ones that caught my attention on and were definitely inaccurate because they skipped over the All-New, All-Different set up for the Kang War, so we're certainly going to need either someone who is knowledgeable in the time travel shenanigans to check every one of the appearance tags, or simply undo the entire lot en masse, as we already know some are wrong, thus calling the accuracy of the rest into question. Thoughts? -- Annabell (talk) 23:48, January 15, 2017 (UTC) ::I'd rather undo everything until we can confirm what is true and not, I believe the one with the most knowledge on this might be Nausiated, but that would depend on how much of this stuff intersects with Fantastic Four. Copeinator123 (talk) 00:07, January 16, 2017 (UTC) ::: I wrote the lionshare of the histories for all the versions of Kang. Read everything up until 2014 or so. I think all the incarnations should be separate. That's how the handbooks do it. I can catch up on the new stuff but the way I had the profiles and appearances laid out should stay as they are because it's the easiest way to track his appearances in his various incarnations. :::Nausiated (talk) 00:36, January 16, 2017 (UTC) ::::The iterations definitely should be separate, my main question is what we should do with the edit spree that merged or "corrected" some of what Nausiated wrote. (I put that in quotes 'cause I don't believe the "corrections" should be accepted as accurate at face value and instead require verification.) Anyway, I agree with Copeinator123 that the safest solution is to simply undo the entire spree rather than sift through it, but that's also because I've not read all the associated issues and believe in this novel concept that those who actually read the comics have a better understanding of the order of appearance than I. -- Annabell (talk) 01:29, January 16, 2017 (UTC) ::::: okay wait... can someone back up a few paces and explain what the issue is? Is someond trying to merge all the pages or are they changing appearences or what? Little confused. ::::: if it is appearances though, yes, undo with extreme prejudice. :::::Nausiated (talk) 07:13, January 16, 2017 (UTC) ::::::Someone was trying to merge Kid Immortus with Iron Lad. --Nurdboy42 (talk) 07:19, January 16, 2017 (UTC) :::::::They also added several apn tags and the two I checked on recent issues I'd read weren't correct, so I'm concerned about the accuracy of the others. And here's some examples of various different Fantastic Four issues they changed. In total it's more than two-hundred Kang-related edits. -- Annabell (talk) 08:17, January 16, 2017 (UTC) ::::::::I really hope that you can forgive me guys, I've done those edits only because I think I know very well the history of Kang and his counterparts, I read all of the comics and handbooks about him (and his counterparts, too) and, since I've seen that all of the pages related to him really need an update, I edited them with updates and chronological notes; I think that there's nothing wrong about it, and I only want to excuse myself about the APN tags (I've realized my mistakes), and now I really want to explain you why I merged Iron Lad and Kid Immortus' pages: ::::::::In (on Ant-Man's update page), Kid Immortus is mentioned as Iron Lad's future counterpart, but after the events of FF, we can see Iron Lad (no more as Kid Immortus) in , in the final future called "The End of Times", with his counterparts, Kang and Immortus. Now, I personally think that if a character first appeared as X (Iron Lad), then as Y (Kid Immortus), and later return as X (in the End of Times), we don't need to create a page for the intermediary identity, we normally include those informations in the main page. Example: for some time, Captain America called himself "The Captain". We don't actually have a page like "Steven Rogers (The Captain) (Earth-616)". A different thing is the Immortus' page: Immortus was only originally a future counterpart of Rama-Tut ( ), diverging from Rama-Tut as a consequence of the events of Avengers Forever. Now Immortus is a divergence, and not a future counterpart like someone said (I don't remember who, but it's the same). Following the same line, the page for the Scarlet Centurion is actually featuring informations about Rama-Tut who became Scarlet Centurion and later returned as Rama-Tut, and that, always in my opinion, is wrong. I want to explain myself: they're not temporal counterparts, they are two identities used by the same man. But when we talk about the Scarlet Centurion appeared in , and , now we're talking about a divergence, exactly like the actual Immortus and like the newest Kang's divergence: Mister Gryphon. And, concluding, we don't actually know if Iron Lad/Kid Immortus will one day became Kang (or, more correctly, Rama-Tut --> Scarlet Centurion --> Rama-Tut --> Kang --> Rama-Tut --> Kang/Immortus' divergence), like we don't know if, one day in the future, the Original Five X-Men will return in their past (possibly without memories of their lives in the present), and, since we don't know it, the Wikia gave them a TRN. (Ok, I'm not proposing to give Kid Immortus/Iron Lad a TRN, because they are actually temporal paradoxes from the same reality and no new reality is created when Kang travels back in time). It's the same thing for the entire 2099 thing. The Handbooks say that, one day, the Miguel O'Hara who is on Prime Earth will return to his universe (Earth-928) under unrevealed circumstances, following his destiny like we've seen in the pages of the original SM 2099 run, but the Database decided to give this "new" Miguel O'Hara (Earth-928)|Miguel a new Earth-TRN588|TRN, since, reading the actual comics, is pretty much clear that Peter David is trying to distance himself and the "new" Earth-928 from the old 2099 canon. For those reason I think that's better to keep Iron Lad/Kid Immortus as a divergence more than a past counterpart. ::::::::And the last topic: the Kang of Earth-X: the Appendix actually has two different pages for the mainstream Immortus and for the "Pope Immortus"/Kang the Immortal who appeared in Universe X and Paradise X (and in their connected specials), because the Immortus/Kang of Earth-X is believed to be a "delusional or poser Kang" (the Kang/Rama-Tut/Scarlet Centurion of Earth-9997, who, according to Universe X, had a very similar history with the mainstream Kang); for those reasons I removed Pope Immortus' section in Immortus page and I put them in Earth-X's Kang page.http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/kangtheimmortal.htm ::::::::Guys, I really hope that you can understand my ideas, sorry again for everything, every problem that I've caused and for the very long post :) Duellante magic (talk) 13:37, January 16, 2017 (UTC) ::::::::: Yeah, I would have preferred you leave the APN tags alone. A lot of those were added by me and I heavily researched them. So unless something new comes out that places itself chronologically between the APN tags as they are now, they are accurate. I'm getting kind of tired of people doing half-assed changes to the APN tags that I spend hours researching. So kindly stop it. ::::::::: As for your whole explanation of the Iron Lad/Kid Immortus thing: There is absolutely no evidence that connects Iron Lad and Kid Immortus in the way you described. Meaning there is no link stating that he became Kid Immortus immediately after Children's Crusade and then went back to being Iron Lad during Original Sin. None. So your logic here doesn't stand up. Especially since you are referring to a profile in a handbook that isn't even about the character in question. It's about someone related to him. Which will never go into the detail needed to explain other characters in a way that's fitting. ::::::::: The reason why we split up the Iron Lad and Kid Immortus pages is because everytime Nathaniel Richards changes an identity there is a separate profile for it. If you look at the Marvel Handbooks there are profiles for Rama-Tut, Kang, Immortus, and Iron Lad. There isn't one for Kid Immortus yet because they haven't gotten around to it, but I would suspect that the pattern would be the same. We're following the example made by the handbooks. ::::::::: On the Pope Immortus/Kang item and Earth-9997. Again, this is all recorded on the Immortus page because there is only one Immortus in the multiverse. He's a singular being with no alternates. So regardless of what happened on in Earth X that is Immortus. However, you have to observe it from his own personal timeline, not the linear time of whatever universe he is working in. For example, in Avengers: The Terminatrix Objective, Immortus appears as an old man in the year 9999 AD and dies of old age. That's still the same Immortus and he is technically dead because at some point in his future he is going to die. However, since he is a time traveler who lives in Limbo, the actually amount of times he has meddled with history and timelines and reality can still be told because we're dealing with a character who literally deals with infinity. Getting back to the Earth X thing: Yes, the Appendix has a separate profile for him, but if you look at the Official Handbook, you will find that all the information about Immortus on Earth-9997 is contained in the Immortus profile. At any rate, you should not be using the Appendix as a reference when there is something officially published anyway. Even though the people at the Appendix are usually the ones who write the Marvel Handbooks, what is found on the appendix is raw material with no editorial oversight, poorly put together and littered with unofficial hearsay and opinions that are not considered official cannon. ::::::::: Lastly, on the All-New X-Men, Spider-Man 2099 front. I will also add the Maestro from Future Imperfect and I'm also going to argue Old Man Logan needs to be treated the same way. With the exception of All-New X-Men, I fought to have all of those TRNs added. Why, because people assumed that these characters were the original versions. Which if you're doing that without doing any research on the subjects all together that is an irresponsible and lazy point of view. To prove my point I read ALL of the original Spider-Man 2099 comics and I read all the appearances of the Maestro from Future Imperfect. Yes, these characters are similar but they are not the same. If you actually bothered to read Spider-Man 2099 Vol 1 and compare it to Vol 2 and Vol 3, you will see that there is no way Miguel O'Hara from the "true" Earth-928 could be the one running around there are too many inconsistencies (which have been greatly detailed on the Miguel O'Hara profile talk page) Same thing with the Maestro who appears in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2. He cannot be the original Maestro because it contradicts everything that was established during Future Imperfect and subsequent appearances of that version of the Maestro. ::::::::: However, comparing them to Nathaniel Richards is like comparing apples to oranges. However, I also find it quite insulting that you claim to know a lot about this character yet made so many mistakes. I spent three months of time researching, fact checking, then writing all of those profiles. Yet you come in all willy-nilly and make over the course of days because you can't tell the difference between similarities and sameness? With no justifications what so ever. Yeah, I'm going to ask you strongly to stop doing that. :::::::::Nausiated (talk) 17:45, January 16, 2017 (UTC)